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  • #5568
    ulvfugl
    Keymaster

     

    Snapshots of world development present a bleak picture. According to the United Nations Development Programme, an estimated 14,000 people per day become infected with HIV/AIDS, while roughly 30,000 children die each day of preventable diseases. n33 A quarter of the world’s population lives in extreme poverty, and the income of the richest 5 percent is 114 times higher than the income of the poorest 5 percent. n34 Even in a world of states, 40 percent of the world’s babies are born without official nationality, n35 and eighty-two out of every thousand children born alive die before turning five. n36 A significant percentage of the world’s population lives in war zones: during the 1990s, more than a third of the world’s countries experienced “serious societal warfare” of one form or another, n37 and one study identified thirty-nine cases of genocide since 1955. n38

    Just as Afghanistan and Iraq are fractured into numerous competing ethnic and religious groups dominated by warlords and other regional powerbrokers, n39 the international order still better resembles a Hobbesian scramble for survival than a coherent system of governance. If there is some sense in which all the world’s people constitute a society (and why not insist on that, in this era of globalization and human rights?), it is hard not to conclude that the international community is simply a failed state on a global scale.

    http://rosabrooks.squarespace.com/failed-states-or-the-states-as/

    #5569
    annie
    Participant

    What has that got to do with the price of TREES?

    #5571
    ulvfugl
    Keymaster

     

    Never cut a green tree, but wait for a tree to age and die and then use it as timber.”

     

    This is not necessarily such a good idea, at least in this country. In the forest where I worked, at least 75% of insects required dead or rotting wood for at least part of their life cycle. Not to mention all the fungi, and microfauna that live on dead wood.

    So it would make much more sense to use live trees for firewood, using coppice management of species that regrow from the stump.

    It is a shame that the whole human race did not follow the example of the Bishnoi, but they seem to be using motor vehicles just like everyone else, and the dominant mainstream destructive culture has prevailed almost everywhere, so, IMO, there is no longer any hope for a future for this world.

    The forces that have been set in motion, for climate change and ecological collapse, can not be prevented by anything that anyone can do.

     

    #5572
    ulvfugl
    Keymaster

     

    According to the hypothesis on which the meeting was based “there are cultural variations in the way minds are imagined, and . . . these variations have consequences for mental experience (broadly defined) and the nature of social interaction.” Invited speakers briefly summarized their work (papers were circulated in advance) but most of each session and many lively coffee-break conversations were devoted to exploring related questions and research opportunities.

     

    http://somatosphere.net/2011/10/summary-toward-an-anthropological-theory-of-mind-atom.html

     

    http://cmbconference2012.org/hearing-voices-in-accra-and-chennai-how-culture-makes-a-difference-to-psychiatric-experience-tanya-luhrmann-video/

    #5573
    annie
    Participant

    Well I kinda liked the fact that “ It is not a religion that has a heritage of myths, miracles, a book, ornate temples or priests.”  They just get on with it!

    Pretty soon the weather/climate will be so dramatically changed that ALL of the ‘people’ will finally start screaming ‘enough’! All the stupid stories, analysis, theories etc etc etc will be irrelevant! And even if it is too late, the MAJORITY will, FINALLY, be TRUE and go down with a clear conscience!

    I am SO tired of uppity story tellers (who make a living out of all of this!) dissing the 99%! It’s the effing SYSTEM!!! SHAME on THEM!

    #5574
    annie
    Participant

    Example….

    The Fisher King is emblematic of contemporary culture. For millennia the oceans have thrived with stupendous life, from fish in kinetic rainbows racing currents to coral cascading color. Yet human activity over the last thirty years has poisoned the oceans and exhausted the seas, turning this blue world into a dead sump of denied life.

    http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/7145

    Get a fucking grip!!!!

    #5575
    annie
    Participant

    Ah, but it ‘reads’ well… Aaaarrrrgghhh!

    #5576
    annie
    Participant

    Anyway I, admittedly ‘a pleb’, consider Charlotte Du Cann to be, by far, a much more superior writer!

    http://charlotteducann.blogspot.co.uk/p/52-flowers-that-shook-my-world-radical.html

    #5577
    annie
    Participant

    btw, ulvfugl, you old ‘trend setter’ you, I’ve noticed that your ‘symbiotics’ has started creeping in to the ‘bohemian‘ (in their dreams!) musings 🙂

    “whether we could live symbiotically with the earth as the Gaia theorists suggest…” (Charlotte Du Cann http://charlotteducann.blogspot.co.uk/p/52-flowers-that-shook-my-world-radical.html)

    “Thanks to Tobar an Dualchais, you can listen to those recordings and many others online, and what they point to is a symbiotic relationship between music, land and culture.” (Dougie Strang http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2012/11/07/book-review-thinking-in-pibroch/)

     

    #5578
    annie
    Participant

    #5579
    annie
    Participant

    #5580
    annie
    Participant

    X

    #5622
    annie
    Participant

    I’ve been thinking of how the Bishnois women suckle the young animals and how it reminded me of the ending of Steinbeck’s, ‘The Grapes of Wrath’ (the image of Rose of Sharon nursing the half-starved man with her breast milk is perhaps one of the most startling, beautiful and moving images in all of literature, imo)

    As Steinbeck famously said, “I’ve done my damndest to rip a reader’s nerves to rags, and to put a tag of shame on the greedy bastards who are responsible for this” (the Great Depression and its effects)

    Ah, if only contemporary ‘uppity story tellers’ had his insight, balls and SOUL, their work might be worth reading. However, I don’t expect to be reading, any time soon, their taking up of suckling the threatened species of this world (might be a wee bit icky for them to contemplate!)

    #5623
    annie
    Participant

    This is the beginning – from “I” to “we”. If you who own the things people must have could understand this, you might preserve yourself. If you could separate causes from results, if you could know that Paine, Marx, Jefferson, Lenin were results, not causes, you might survive. But that you cannot know. For the quality of owning freezes you forever into “I”, and cuts you off forever from the “we”. Chapter 14 The Grapes of Wrath

    #5624
    ulvfugl
    Keymaster

     

    Yes, but Steinbeck was quite long ago now, and the American left has vanished, and it is impossible to have a ‘we’ of 7 billion humans.

    People coalesce into groups they can comprehend, groups of ‘others’ who are ‘like me’, on class or race or ethnic or religion or party or national or musical or sport or whatever their preference may be, and many of these groups are incompatible.

    You do it yourself, Annie, by identifying with the Scottish people, who are, by definition, ‘us’ and not ‘them’, not Israeli, or Libyan, or English, or Russian, but Scots.

    And again, within Scotland, myriad sub-divisions.

    A ‘we’ only works for a certain number, where there is a common ‘we-ness’, which can be perceived in some way, and this has been going on throughout history, where groups split and fracture and become antagonistic, usually fostered by people like politicians who use it as a stepping stone to gain power and support.

    The ‘we’s always want to grow, expand, increase numbers and power, because they are all in competition on a finite area, a finite planet. If they stay small, they get taken over by stronger neighbours. The potential for humans to increase is a powerful dynamic, not long ago families with ten or fifteen children were common. In a single generation, numbers can multiply ten-fold or more, if the resources are available.

    Even worse, it has been going on throughout history, to cause another even worse division, species-ism, where the ‘we’ are humans, and the ‘them’ are all the rest, which ‘we’ are entitltled to kill and abuse and exploit as we please.

    But if you transcend the ‘I’ at a deep level, you realise that you cannot exist without the Earth, or indeed, without the whole Universe of which it it a product and a part. Without the Sun, ‘we’ are all dead, ‘we’ would never have existed.

    So, where do you draw the boundary ? At your own skin ? Much within that skin is ‘not me’, it’s minerals and water and bacteria and ‘stuff’. The ‘me’ part is the conscious sense of self, with its various sub-divisions and ideas about identity, its bundle of stories.

    When humans practice mystical or shamanic or meditational traditions, they can get beyond that small sense of ‘I’, of ‘me’, and experience themselves as something vast, an exquisite identification with being all that exists. But this is relatively rare. Steinbeck knew about it, of course. But it has suited capitalist consumer culture to teach people to see themselves as isolated selfish units, parts of a socio-economic machine, and the majority never wake up to any other realisation.

    Not that that is new either, it’s been going on since Sumer. Are you a farmer, a soldier, a priest, a trader, or a king ? Hierarchy and social division seems to be part of our biological and cultural heritage from which we cannot easily extricate ourselves, especially when reinforced by indoctrination of values via mass education and tv etc.

    Some species have evolved to live mainly solitary lives, meeting only occasionally to reproduce. Others have evolved to be groups or herds or flocks, where they cannot exist in isolation. Humans seem to be clannish, tribal, the Dunbar number Mari mentioned the other day, 150 individuals whose names and stories all can know and remember.

    Probably, we’d be happiest at that sort of level, where community is meaningful. Once you scale up to mega-tribes of hundreds of millions, it all breaks down.

     

    For me, all this stuff is already water under the bridge. It seemed interesting and important to try and understand ‘the world’ and to try and find answers to the pressing problems, but, for me, that’s over. The biosphere is collapsing, and will continue to do so, and human extinction will occur.

    Nobody wants to hear that. They all cling to their stories. That’s fine too. It makes no difference. If you can comfort yourself with some story that fulfills your needs, then what difference does it make what ulfugl thinks ?

    The biology of the planet, that thin skin that sustains all life, is being irretrievably destroyed by humans and their technologies, and, although it is a fairly drawn out process from the perspective of human timescales, decades, from a geological perspective, Earth’s history, we all vanish forever in the blink of an eye.

     

     

    #5625
    ulvfugl
    Keymaster

    The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said “This is mine,” and found people naïve enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.
    Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Discourse on Inequality, 1754

    #5627
    ulvfugl
    Keymaster

     

    International Lost Species Memorial Day

     

    #5630
    judith
    Member

    #5632
    annie
    Participant

    Yes, but Steinbeck was quite long ago now, and the American left has vanished, and it is impossible to have a ‘we’ of 7 billion humans.

    Well, that’s your opinion, ulvfugl. But for me, to give up and quit is to give in to the voice that says, ‘It doesn’t matter’, when it so obviously does! I ‘get’ why Rose of Sharon fed the dying man with the only thing she had left to give him, even if they both eventually died anyway.

    Btw, I’m a marxist/socialist, not a nationalist. As a working class Scottish female, I’m fully aware that I’ve got much more in common with working class South Americans, North Americans, Africans, Europeans (including the English :-)) etc than I do with Scottish capitalists and their lackeys! Which is why I will be voting ‘YES’ in the 2014 Scottish Independence Referendum. Not because I’m a parochial, tartan wahoo, reminiscing and longing for the return of Rob Roy McGregor and Wullie Wallace et al (although I’m proud and grateful to my country’s myths and legends which have contributed to our social and collective consciousness), but because it’s the only hope Scotland, and yes, England, Wales and N Ireland have of changing this neo-liberal, two party system.

    You say that the American left has vanished, but you’re wrong.  Occupy Sandy has been successfully showing destitute New Yorkers how to do it the ‘Steinbeck’ way (or even the Bishnois way :-)) Don’t rely on the disaster capitalists to bale you out; share ideas, knowledge, skills, resources. It’s called social cooperation, the ‘we’ way not the ‘I’ way.

    It’s early days, of course. But change is occurin’ 🙂

     

    #5633
    annie
    Participant

    Disaster Capitalism in Action: hurricane katrina

    2/3 of Funds for Post-Katrina Reconstruction Still Unspent
    http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/resources/disaster-capitalism-in-action/tags/hurricane%2Bkatrina

    #5634
    annie
    Participant

    Hurricane Sandy: beware of America’s disaster capitalists
    The aftermath of the storm offers a chance to rebuild a fairer society. How can we seize it?
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/06/hurricane-sandy-americas-disaster-capitalists

    #5635
    annie
    Participant
    #5637
    ulvfugl
    Keymaster

     

    Annie, “But for me, to give up and quit is to give in to the voice that says, ‘It doesn’t matter’, when it so obviously does!”

    I have NEVER EVER SAID give up and quit !

    What I have said is to keep fighting until the last breath.

    But, do that as a matter of self-respect. Not because you expect to win or succeed or fix the mess.

    That is because, the mess is UNFIXABLE.

    It wouldn’t make ANY difference if EVERYONE suddenly supported Occupy or became socialists or even angels or fucking enlightened Buddhas.

    That, ‘the System’, the people, is NOT the root problem. The root problem is the collapse of the biosphere. We cannot re-freeze the Arctic or the melting glaciers, not stop the oceans from acidifying, nor stop the increasingly frequent severe weather events, droughts, forest fires, etc.

    The global warming/climate chaos we have NOW, results from emissions about 30 years AGO.

    There is a time lag. Emissions have increased ever since. So, what will we expect in future years ?

    Much, much, much worse global warming, that’s what. And we CANNOT change that outcome.

    That’s why we are going to become extinct. Not because of people helping each other or not. I hope they will help each other, as much as they can. But it is IRRELEVANT to the fundamental problem, of the collapse of the biosphere. If there is no oxygen to breath, because the forests and the oceans are dead, then there are no people.

    How do we stop the forests and the oceans from dying ? We can’t. It is too late. We’ll go straight past the 2 deg.C, the so-called ‘safe limit’, ( which never was a safe limit, just an expedient political lie ) and then, when we’re are past the 2 deg. C. it’ll keep on climbing up because of the feedback mechanisms, and there’s no way for humans to stop that from happening.

     

    Whether it ‘matters’ is neither here nor there, if there is nothing that can be done to avoid it.

     

    Yes, of course, ‘it matters’, if this precious jewel called Earth is the only life in the entire Universe, which it might be, and it is without doubt, the only place where humans can live, so it matters to them. But they have now wrecked it. There is no way to fix it. The worst thing that could possibly happen, is happening.

     

     

     

    #5641
    annie
    Participant

    “But they have now wrecked it.”

    No, they didn’t!!! The system they were forced to live in effing wrecked it!!!

    Does that truth matter anyway? Yes it effing well does!!!

    So you can keep perpetuating the old Hobbesian lie ie

    The ‘we’s always want to grow, expand, increase numbers and power, because they are all in competition on a finite area, a finite planet. If they stay small, they get taken over by stronger neighbours.

    It didn’t need to be that way but the propaganda machine STILL keeps churning it out!!! Like there never was an alternative!!! That the Eco-Socialists are ALL nutters!!!

     

    #5643
    ulvfugl
    Keymaster

     

    “But they have now wrecked it.”

    Everyone except the few innocents, like minority ethnic groups still living fairly naturally, the Kogi, Bishnoi, Amish, the greens who were fighting the system. the poorest and the peasants of the world with no power to influence anything, and so forth… the ones who wrecked it, the developed capitalist nations with their industries and everyone who supported and benefited from that system… which means the majority in UK, for example…

    No, they didn’t!!! The system they were forced to live in effing wrecked it!!!

    I’m really speaking more generally, ‘they’ are the human species…

    Does that truth matter anyway? Yes it effing well does!!!

    Not much. Only for the historical record, like say, who really caused WW1

    So you can keep perpetuating the old Hobbesian lie ie

    The ‘we’s always want to grow, expand, increase numbers and power, because they are all in competition on a finite area, a finite planet. If they stay small, they get taken over by stronger neighbours.

    Okay, give me an example of ANY country, corporation, religion, football club, any human group anywhere, ever, from the size of a family on up, that does not seek to expand and grow its power…

    Nothing to do with Hobbes at all. Afaik, the only people who don’t want more power are eccentric taoist hermits and the like…

     

    It didn’t need to be that way but the propaganda machine STILL keeps churning it out!!! Like there never was an alternative!!! That the Eco-Socialists are ALL nutters!!!

    Of course the propaganda machines will keep churning it out, they want to keep the thing going for as long as possible…

    I’m not saying eco-socialists are nutters, I ma saying that whatever they do will not make any difference to the final outcome, of human extinction. We are on the brink of a major mass extinction event in Earth’s history. Eco-socialists have no means of fixing the acidifying oceans and the melting permafrost and the methane and CO2 emissions, extinction of species and collapsing ecosystems, etc, etc,  than any more than anyone else does….

    I’m not saying they shouldn’t try. Just that it’s not going to change our fate.

    #5644
    ulvfugl
    Keymaster

    #5645
    annie
    Participant

    Of course the propaganda machines will keep churning it out, they want to keep the thing going for as long as possible…

    Yeah, and you’re doing your damndest to assist them!

    Have another look at what you’ve just written!

    #5646
    annie
    Participant

    Okay, give me an example of ANY country, corporation, religion, football club, any human group anywhere, ever, from the size of a family on up, that does not seek to expand and grow its power…

    Well, maybe if we’d been allowed adopt a different system I could have given you MANY examples!

    #5647
    annie
    Participant

    Nothing to do with Hobbes at all. Afaik, the only people who don’t want more power are eccentric taoist hermits and the like…

    I despair, I really do… it’s not about ‘power’, it’s about ‘equality’! Living in harmony with each other and nature.

    #5649
    ulvfugl
    Keymaster

     

    So, why doesn’t ‘living in harmony’ work out in practice ?

     

    Because, whether its a sea urchin or sea gulls or foxes or a tribe of humans, any form of life, they need somewhere to be, where they can exist and find whatever they need to survive.

    Once the available area is full, then what ? The only option is to ‘not exist’ or to displace some other life form.

    That’s agriculture. That’s cities. That’s human overpopulation. They all displace other life forms and take over the space and resources for themselves.

    And when the whole planet is over-populated, the only option is war, taking over another country, killing the elites and stealing the resources.

     

    It would be nice if it wasn’t like that. Hence the thinking re permaculture, where you design a system to provide for your needs that minimises harm to others and the natural environment. It’s possible to get fairly close to perfection, if there was a lot of time, to build forest gardens and similar stuff. Never perfect, but better.

    But now there is no time. Permaculture doesn’t fix climate change. Permaculture doesn’t protect wild land and endangered species. And for it to work, 7 billion plus 2 billion have to know how to do it, and want to do it…. and so forth….

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